The Fractional Leader Podcast
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The Fractional Leader Podcast
All Hiring Processes Suck
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All hiring processes suck, yes, it's true.
BUT, you can create systems that make them suck less.
When it comes to finding talent and hiring great talent, there are no silver bullets.
But if you stay true to your vision, mission, and values you can make a tough process produce better results.
Challenges in Hiring and Firing
Speaker 1so people in business like to think that they lead with logic and facts and data . You know , you got to run a pnl , yep , you're looking at your metrics . So things are factual and informational . But I think one of the most frustrating things about being in business is the fact that so many things are actually really emotional , and I think hiring and firing we want it to be on the data , we want to have systems and processes in place , but at the end of the day , our emotions drive so much of the hiring and firing process , it's so hard man Like hiring and firing not as hard , I guess .
Speaker 2I mean , maybe getting to that decision is tough , yeah , but I think it was Gary V . Someone asked him like what's the best hiring advice you could give ? And he said fire fast . Yeah , because he's just like you , just don't know . And he told a story about someone that he pursued and they interviewed him for months and months and months and he fired him the first week , just got him there it wasn't a good fit and then just had to make a decision to cut him . So why do you think that is ? Why is hiring and firing so freaking ?
Speaker 1hard . I think it's just tough to separate our experiences from the data . So I think if you're a middle manager , you want to prove yourself . You're like I want headcount , I want people on my team , I want to show my bosses that I can lead a big team , and so it's like my value is tied up in how many people I can hire yeah . And if you're an older manager , maybe you've got some scar tissue because you've made some bad hires and you've seen people get burned , you know , or you've been burned , so you're reluctant . So it's emotional , Like I have to hire somebody again . I don't want to do this , you know . And if you're a small business owner , you want people that are all in . You're like do you buy into my vision ? Will you go with me on this journey ? And so it's not just I need to find a really great employee for this role . It's like I want to find the right special person that's going to take me to the next level . So it's just so hard to separate emotion from what's really at stake .
Speaker 2So when you're hiring , what are some of the things and maybe this is going too practical , too quick , because you just said a lot right there . That's really good . We could unpack a lot of that stuff and I'm thinking through hires that I've made , that I'm just like , oh my gosh , tell us a story of a hire you've made . Well , you know , the best hire I ever made was the worst process . Okay , and so I hired someone one time from Florida , brought him up to Tennessee . It was during the pandemic . The whole process was just whack . Yeah , I mean , just I botched the whole thing and turned out to be a great hire , whereas I've done hiring process before , I mean gone through the motion , go to hr get approval , get the yeah salary first
Speaker 2yeah , and have tanked like just completely . You know people that have come from amazing places and got in . I mean , I've got I won't mention names , but I've got someone in mind . I'm like man , we got them from another organization that we really love and really respect and they got and just wasn't a good fit for us . And so I think there's maybe some tips and best practices , but I would have to start out by saying , when it comes to hiring , you just don't know If someone tells you like this is the formula for it , here's the magic bullet .
Speaker 2Yeah , I wouldn't trust that man , but I do think there's things you can do like . One is if you can do some sort of trip I know that sounds crazy , but you learn a lot about whether or not you want to be around that person . If you can do a one or two day , hey , we're going to go to a conference . Why don't you come with us as part of the hiring process ? Now , you can't always do that , yeah , but most of the time , if I can spend a couple days with a person like , I can decide whether or not I want to like show up to work yeah , with this person or not . But what about ?
Speaker 1you do , you have any ?
Speaker 2experiences you're thinking of I mean .
Speaker 1So I was just gonna say context matters so much . So , uh , my brother-in-law worked for a mega mega corporation where he had his own business inside this mega corporation and I actually sent him a text . I was like , hey , we're talking about hiring and firing today . What was , what were some of your best practices ? He goes , oh , hire fast , fire faster . And he was joking , but it's like it was a , it was a turn and burn industry , like they would have to get levels of employees really high for certain seasons and then when that season was done and they got a forecast for the next quarter , they'd have to fire a bunch of people real fast . And you know , it was just like the mirror test Can you fog a mirror ? Do you have a driver's license ? You're hired . You know , like they just had to staff up for those things and there's some training and developing and I'm kind of painting with a broad brush .
Speaker 1But then there's other organizations where the culture demands that it's just very relational and it demands that we work closely . We're highly collaborative , we work inter , you know , departmentally , and so that conference story you talked about , like can we bring them in and just see how they react with our team . That's going to be a good practice for some organizations . In some places it's just about like you know . I tell a story . I've got a family member her and her husband are a little bit younger than me and they say you know , we kind of leave jobs every two or three years because we get paid more at the next company that hires us . So it's like , okay , there's a loyalty factor of like how long do I really think this employment is going to last ? So I'll add to say , to support your point earlier , if anybody like hosts a podcast or sells a book , it's like here's how you always hire , here's how you always fire , like run , there's just , it's so complicated .
Speaker 2I love that the context Cause , as you were talking about that , I was replaying things in my mind . You're exactly right . Like , if you're hiring a technician , a lot of it is can you do this job ? Well , right , a high chemistry , high woo , high culture . You know that you might need to spend a little more time . You know doing , you know bring them to the house and hang out .
Speaker 2Whatever you got to do to feel like , hey , do I and I think some of it is just understanding is this is this person like ? What is their value system ? Yeah , you know , are they hired ? Is is it like , hey , I'm just , I'm a nine to five , or work monday through friday so I can be a weekend warrior , and you know . Or it like I got to do something I believe in as high purpose . So , like , if you're a company that's a high purpose , high whatever . You can't hire that person who just wants a bunch of clock , right , it's not going to work . And vice versa , right , right . And so what are ? I'm curious , do you have best practices , like when you're hiring for what are some best practices that might be transferable across all these different ?
Speaker 1areas . I didn't know if we were going to get to this today , but you know , one of the products that we offer through fraction X is the strategic work on it calendar and that typically kicks off with a strategic offsite for a couple of days , and we just did that for our own company last week . And I think great hiring starts with core values , mission , vision values and if you hire for those things , you've got a much higher percentage chance of finding the right fit . I think the most certain you ever get on the front end of a hire is 80% , and if you get to 80% , you move forward . It's really tough to close the gap .
Speaker 1So I heard a leader say one time that great values are great values because they're valuable and you hire for them and you fire from
Leadership, Hiring, and Company Values
Speaker 1them .
Speaker 1So I think this whole conversation needs to be wrapped in clarity of the leader that says this is my company , this is where we're going , here's how we're going to get there . And the values these are the rules of engagement , this is how we're going to treat each other , this is how we're going to treat customers , and they don't need to be like pithy . We have integrity and we have excellence . It's like yeah , so does everybody . It needs to be in your context , out of the heart of the leader that started the organization , and if the founder's gone and there's new leadership , it needs to be in the heart of the founder , contextualized for today . But once you have those things decided , then you build questions that see if there's alignment between that person's values , what's innate and real in them , and does that match up with the values of the company ? Yeah , that's really good , and not yes or no questions Like hey , tell me a story of one time when you're trying to again get that value lined up from their heart to your company's heart .
Speaker 2Yeah , patrick Lencioni has a great resource out there for people that are like I don't know where to start .
Speaker 1Yeah , patrick Lencioni has a great resource out there for people that are like I don't know where to start . He's got a great resource of questionnaires around things like culture and competency and all those different things and you can find . If you're a leader who doesn't have their own system , borrow one . So let's talk about a couple of the frameworks that we've used in the past . So I think Lencioni has two that I think are pretty valuable . One's a little more generalized and generic and one's a little more specific . So I think the one that's a little more generalized is the chemistry , culture , competency , right , just that ideal team player kind of talks through . Competency , right , just that um , ideal team player kind of talks through . There's a way to discern and decipher if this person has got the ideal team player characteristics .
Speaker 2That was a great one . He also has working genius , yeah .
Speaker 1And that's the one that's more detailed , you know , with a deeper assessment , go ahead , yeah , no .
Speaker 2I , I , I love that one too . Um it's . I don't know if it's simpler , but all of Lencioni's stuff around team building and culture stuff is gold . I think I'd highly recommend that . You know , we also use StrengthsFinder quite a bit . We use Enneagram . I like using those two things because what's ?
Speaker 1the predictive index , one we've used in the past , because that one's pretty detailed as well , that one's great .
Speaker 2The crazy thing about predictive index is like it'll ask you two sets of questions , yeah , is like it'll ask you two sets of questions , yeah , and it's almost like it messes with your mind , because the first time I took I was like , wait , that was it , I and it . It really nailed me . I mean it was it got and I don't I still don't know the science behind it , yeah , but it's like circle these like here's how you behave at work , here's how you behave at home , and based on these things , they're able to really smart . Like science behind these things , you know .
Speaker 1And I think for me , like , order of operations is really important . So how and when you hire really starts with what determines the vacancy . Like , did somebody leave your team ? Are you back filling a role , um , or are you hiring for growth ? Hey , this is going to be a big year . We really got to get some money on the team to help carry these responsibilities . So I think what determines the hire really starts the process off on a lot of levels .
Speaker 1But , um , a friend of mine works for a fortune 500 , there might be a fortune 100 company and he got a chance to spend a day with the CEO , which is a really big deal . This guy's like a super high , um , high skilled leader and he talked about the things as CEO he was really in charge of and it's the normal stuff that you thought about . But he said , oh , uh , talent , research and acquisition Like I'm always thinking about talent and I was like , yes , if you're in the hiring business , that process for talent can't start when you post it on . Indeed , and I'm not talking about networking for networking sake , but good leaders are always in the lookout of , like man that is a talented person . I love what they bring to the table . So you're , you're , you know , you're looking at LinkedIn , um , you're paying attention to these mastermind groups . You're paying attention everywhere you go to . It's like I want to be surrounded by talented people all the time , so that , when a hiring process starts , I'm not starting at zero and it can be random , it can be .
Speaker 2It can be your server at your restaurant . But there's something special about them . It's like , hey , they're going the extra mile . There's a spark about them . I see something in you which it kind of leads me to my next question for you In leadership , when it comes to hiring and talent , how much do you trust your gut ? Like what's like because you talked earlier about emotions there's been times where , as a leader , I've had to be like , hey , I feel something towards this person .
Speaker 2I don't know what it is but there's something which and sometimes that's right and sometimes it's wrong , but where does that come into play in this hiring process ?
Speaker 1That's a great question and here . So here's where I've got this right and here's where I've screwed this up . So when I'm hiring like for someone else , like I've been asked to be on a hiring team or I've asked to lead a search process , it's pretty easy for me to separate myself , my preferences and you know how I feel about a situation and be like here's the criteria on the job description , here are the candidates . You know criteria for applying for the role and we use all the tools we talked about , like you know , working genius , et cetera . I can do that pretty logically .
Speaker 1But the reason it's emotional is I remember I was hiring for an assistant one time . We got a ton of great applications , super strong candidates , and there was a person I thought , oh , this person would be great . We talked about this in an episode before where you were drawn to an energy . There was a person I thought , oh , this person would be fun to work with . I feel like I'm really engaged by their interview . And then I was hopefully smart enough to listen to the people on the hiring team . They're like you're an idiot , this person is like a million percent better for you , and I kind of missed it . And they were right . It was a great assistant , really good working relationship . But I needed someone to separate what I felt in that moment from what the criteria was .
Speaker 2So hiring team , I mean , that's the other thing too . We could go into that , but make sure you've got a team around you of people that will speak truth into your process and help you see what you're not seeing . You know , for me , similarly , I would get excited and also I just having a vacant role . It sucks , man , cause you're just , you're down , a person's , the rest of the team's having to pick up the load , and you know I'm trying to go quick through this and sometimes my impatience or my anxiety would take the driver's seat when I would try to talk myself into liking a person instead of being like man . They're not the right fit and I know it , but I don't have anybody else that's great around me . It's like you know what I'm saying and I'm I'm forcing the issue . As someone said I forget who it was , but said if it's not a hell yeah , it's a no .
Speaker 1Yeah , that's right .
Speaker 2And that's something I've had to really like , if is it a hell .
Speaker 1Yeah , derrick sievers , was that who it was ? He was the founder of cd baby back in the day .
Speaker 2No , way , cd baby . Yeah , that's great . Yeah , I had some albums on there . You go check them out . But um on it , if it's not a hell , yeah , it's a no and that's a . That's a great piece of advice and sometimes , like you said , 80 . Sometimes you have to get to that place , but but it's like , yeah , I'm all in on this person .
Speaker 1Well , we've said this before on the podcast that I think bad leadership is the most expensive thing on the planet and I would say the vast majority of that statement has a lot to do with self-awareness and growing and development as a leader . But I think a place that bad leadership being expensive shows up in hiring big time , bad leadership being expensive shows up in hiring big time . Yeah , what I mean by that is the sense of urgency to not crush the team that you already have with additional responsibilities to get someone on the bus fast so that you can get some momentum and get back to positive results . It will make you make decisions that you're not ready to make . You know your urgency tells you that we need to get this going quick and people will tell you it is so much more expensive to hire the wrong person quick than to be patient to get the right person .
Speaker 2Sure man , that's so good . Well , and as you're talking , I just reflecting , and I think this is part of the role of a leader . Some of it was my anxiety , but also I think it's as a leader I always knew what my next step was going to be .
Speaker 1Like I was always a step or two ahead of like knew what my next step was going to be like I was always a step or two ahead of like . If this , then you're talking about your org chart or on a hiring process in particular .
Speaker 2Well , I'm talking about org chart . I'm talking about like , hey , this is , and you know we've . We joke about this all the time . I was mr restructure because I love to move around the deck chairs , but I was also very . Some of those moves were really strategic , really strategic . Some were just me getting bored , um , and I had people around me that was calling me out saying , hey , I think you're bored . And even people on my team said , hey , we like this plan , let's stick with it for two years . But I , I will say even in that , um , sorry , they're slamming the door , it just got me in my head a radio edit .
Speaker 2I'm just like do we have to slam ? The door or can we just lightly ? Strategic design of your org chart . I'm just like do we have to slam the door , or can we just lightly ?
Speaker 1What were we just talking about Strategic design of your org chart . You're always one step ahead .
Speaker 2Yeah , it was just important for me as a leader to kind of know where I wanted to go with the team , where I wanted to go with future hires . If budget freed up , what would be the next couple hires I'd make If this person left ? How would I backfill them ? I was always kind of reading the team as to what was needed , which was helpful . If a spot opened up where I felt like I could backfill it quickly , or I already had five names in mind that I would call . And let's face it , as a leader , a lot of times there's been very few times I've been blindsided by someone leaving . Either I let them go or I could tell that they were starting to lose passion , lose energy , and so I could start playing some of those scenarios in my mind Okay , if this person bounces , well , I've got five people I'm going to call to see if they want to backfill this and kind of level up this spot
Effective Leadership in Building Teams
Speaker 2.
Speaker 1Yeah , that's good . Well , I was going to say some really great CFOs are gifted in projections , so they go , man , based on this year's performance , here's what I think is going to happen next year . I think when it comes to building teams and hiring it's what you said Like you've probably got a gift for projections , man in a couple of years . I think the team could look like this let's be prepared for that . Hey , I'm sensing this person leaning away from the organization they're . They're not as engaged as they used to be . Their performance is lower , so I may have to backfill this sooner than later . I'd love to , you know , develop them towards better performance , but if that doesn't happen , I need to know I'm not going to leave that chair empty for six months while I rehire it .
Speaker 2Yeah , and this could be a whole nother episode . But you , you have to build the team around you . That's , that's your team , right ? So I ? I inherited a great team one time , like a elite team , but they weren't my team . They didn't compliment my strengths , they didn't compliment . So I led for probably longer than what I what I should have with a team that wasn't complimentary to my leadership style , wasn't complimentary to my strengths .
Speaker 2I was just leading with this elite team from the former leader , and so I think you have to really understand we talk about self-awareness tons because you have to really understand okay , who do I need around me ? And just because a team existed and was successful under a former leader , it may not be the right people that you need for the next one . So in the hiring process , you have to know , hey , who do I have around me right now ? That's why we use all those other tools . Okay , look at Working Genius or StrengthsFinder , enneagram or whatever . Okay , here's who I have on the team when I backfill this position . It'd be really great for me to have this kind of person , because we're lacking . We're heavy on execution and low on creativity , or vice versa , whatever it is . But I think , understanding that having a good idea as a leader of who's around you and what you need is going to help you be more successful in your hiring process . That's so good .
Speaker 1So if someone's listening to this and they're in an organization where they've got some hiring coming up , what are some resources you could point them to , besides this conversation , that you would take yourself if you were trying to build a team right now ?
Speaker 2if you were trying to build a team right now , I will say this the number one by far best resource or most effective tool I've used in hiring great people has been references from former employers or former places that wasn't on the resume . Oh wow , resumes to me and again this could be a hot take . Resumes to me don't mean much . It means you're a great resume writer . So if I'm hiring for a resume writer , you might get the job , but if it's something else other than writing resumes , it doesn't mean much to me . Now I will scan it and look at your education , your experience , all that kind of stuff .
Speaker 2But the best hires that I've made have been people who have called me and said hey , if you ever have an opportunity , you definitely should hire this person . And here's why that those have worked out almost every time , and I could name names right now of people who called me and said hey , if you have a chance to hire this person , you should hire him . And here's why that I don't even know a close second to that for me , because otherwise you know and you definitely ask them what have you done before ? Like , show me some different things . But you know the this is an audition , people are putting their best foot forward .
Speaker 2They're trying to win the job . Sometimes they're trying to win the job even if they don't really want the job . They're just desperate to have a job , so they're trying to win it . But for me it's if I can get one person on the phone and hopefully they don't even know that I'm talking to this person and they're giving me an unbiased reference , cause I've got the . I've got the other way before too , where someone was trying to get rid of someone and gave me a great reference that I got him and I was like dude , now I see why you know . But man , that is , that is gold . I would say search for that .
Speaker 1What about you ? Yeah , I was going to say a friend called me this week who's looking about to change industries and he's like I really got to get my resume updated . I haven't updated in like 10 years . I've been in the same business for a long time .
Speaker 1My advice that he was getting from other people he said was like I got to get the resume like this , this , and I was like I was like look man , like of course you need a good resume , but just like you said , that's like not one of the most important things I'm looking for . Like that opens , opens a door , but what are your transferable skills moving from an industry to an industry ? What are your references ? Like , what are people going to say about you and your leadership and how well you work , how hard you work , what kind of efficacy , how effective are you in the business you're working in ? And so I agree , like the resume is , people put a lot of stock and obviously it gets you know , a seat at the table on some levels for an interview , but there's just not enough information there to really make a great decision .
Speaker 2No
Social Media's Impact on Hiring
Speaker 2, that . And the second one , if there was a close second , I'm going to their social media . That's the first thing I'm doing . Yeah , I want to see how they show up in the world when they're not at work . I want to see what they value . I want to see what they're posting . How do they present themselves to ?
Speaker 1the public ? Are they a liability for your company because of the things they post ?
Speaker 2Absolutely . You learn a lot about a person if you can find low key , find their Facebook , instagram , tiktok , whatever and you're like , oh wow , you present this way . But these are the things you're talking about , the things you care about , the things you're you know , and so you know you definitely want to be careful and you know , follow all the rules and you know guidelines when it comes to hiring . I think I'm pretty sure you're not . You don't ask for those things in interviews , but I always look , I search for them , yeah , even if I don't ask , because that tells me a lot . You know , outside of the reference , once I get the reference and I see what they're posting on social media a lot of times , that will really guide whether or not I want to have now I'm not making the whole decision based on that , but it definitely has them .
Speaker 1Yeah , it's in there for sure . Well , I was going to say , as we wrap up here , I think we haven't even talked firing yet .
Speaker 2That might have to be next episode . Next episode how to fire fast .
Speaker 1often there you go Fast and often Sorry . What were you saying ? We've got a lot of hopes and dreams for Fraction X . Obviously , we want to help leaders get better . We want to help bring strategic calendars to work on it for organizations . But down the road , what I really want to do with this organization is I want to be executive search function . I want to be a place for what you talked about great references and resources for leaders as they're building out their teams to find tremendous leaders , great executives that come alongside leaders and help build their team , grow towards that vision , grow towards that mission and make sure they really accomplish what they want to accomplish .