The FractionX Podcast
Leadership is Hard. We're here to help.
The FractionX Podcast
This is what your leader really wants to say to you and your team.
Have you ever wondered what your boss really thinks but won't say? Our survey revealed a few shocking responses to our question. On this episode we find out, not only what bosses said, but you can hear how Matt and Drew coach both sides to greater clarity and clearer communication.
you, you, you you.
Speaker 2:Matt, what do you want to talk?
Speaker 1:about today. Well, you know, we did an episode about employees' relationship with our leader, yep, and you said, hey, we're going to pick on everybody, we're not just going to pick on the employees, right?
Speaker 2:So no more pain or fear today. Are we because we did that a while back? Are we? Are we getting more lighthearted? Today I had all the pain and fear I can manage. I'm an AGRAM 7. So I don't want to talk about that at all. All right, we noted, but we yeah, you did the poll. We got some interesting responses on that, absolutely.
Speaker 1:So the question we asked last episode was you know, I wish my boss would blank and we had the jokes about hit by the bus and stuff. So this is the the bosses turn to return the favor. Yeah, and I phrase the question a little different in this poll. It's like hey, what's an expectation you have for your staff that you struggle to say often or clearly enough. So a little bit this is about what do I wish my teams knew from me, what do I wish I could really say to them. We got some pretty good responses and you know we always talk about we really want leaders to get better.
Speaker 1:You know, we hate bad leadership. We think it's expensive and it's easy to become a better leader, right? So this episode is going to get a really fine point on that stuff, you know. So I'll go through a couple of these and maybe, if one sticks out, we can, we can camp on it. One leader said I really wish that my team cared for our clients the way that I do. I was like, yeah, I understand that.
Speaker 2:Yeah. What are your thoughts on that one?
Speaker 1:Well, when something's your baby, you know one's going to care about it as much as you do. That was my first instinct too, but they can care for it more than they do now.
Speaker 2:Oh, okay, right, so I love that idea.
Speaker 1:I heard a podcast about a book like and it's about improving your happiness and we're not going to talk about that. But happiness is not a destination. They talked about being happy. So it's like, okay, can you care a little more? And I think you can improve people's connection to the work they do, the people they serve. But at the end of the day, if you're a senior leader or an organization like, no one is going to care more about it than you will ever.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that was my first, that was my default mode and I'm happy to hear you say that you can help your employees care more about it. But in a lot of times, if I'm arguing on the employee's side, I'm like, well, you have to care about me and what my goals are and what I value as well. Right For me to care about the things, because we've talked about this on the podcast before, but I remember having you know a senior leader one time got up and celebrated a couple months of you know the best months financial success yeah, I remember his employee thinking well, not for me, like I wasn't, so I get rallying people around a mission and vision and purpose and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2:So I'm happy to hear you say that you can help them care more. I'm curious what are some if we were to get real, like you said? You said we're going to get a little bit more pinpointed on this as a leader. How do I do that? How do I help motivate my team to care? Because, you're right, they're never going to care about this and, frankly, they don't get the same benefits from it that you do, probably. But how do you move them along that spectrum?
Speaker 1:Always depends on the type of work you're doing, right, you know, I think true Cassie said he who helps the most profits the most.
Speaker 1:And so I think when people see the work they do as I'm serving somebody like I am genuinely making their life better through the thing that I do it can become meaningful and it's not just punching a clock. So if you think about tradesmen, so maybe people who do they paint houses like for a living, so they're painting the inside of a house Does the guy who's going out and selling the jobs, who owns the company, does he care the most? Absolutely? Are they in there just painting to get it over with? Maybe, but they also may take a lot of pride in. Like man, I'm good at this, I do it well, I get paid well for it, and so ultimately, I do care about the end user, I care about the client. If they say we did a great job inside their house, then they're going to you know, come back to us next time. So it's future work for me. So I think if you tie the quality of work and who you're actually serving, you can you can have your staff care more about the clients that they're serving.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think giving them a path to right, giving your employees a path and you don't always have one for them, but I think you know I'm just thinking if I'm an employee and I know like, hey, my boss, my leader, really cares deeply about this you said this before. I've learned this from you as an employee. You got to care about what your leader cares about. You got to figure that out For me.
Speaker 2:I always wanted, I always wanted a leadership path, like, honestly, it's more than compensation, and my history, you know, reflects that, where Jamie would actually say why did you take on more leadership? You're not getting paid anymore for it? Because that trust and that in being compensated and more leadership opportunities for me was a higher value in some seasons of my life than even monetary compensation. But a lot of it was just learning what the leader cared about, doing those things, working hard on those things. And so if you want to have a leadership path or earn more money or whatever, you discover what is and I think this is part of this podcast is having the conversations, yeah, being able to talk to your leader, be like hey, what is it? Or or where do you? I mean, this is a great question.
Speaker 2:Ask a leader when do you not feel energy from me? Yeah, you know, where do you. Where do you feel like man, I'm pulling you along and I want you to be more of a sale, less of an anger, like. Ask them as a leader. I would love for someone to come to me and say hey, in what areas are you passionate about? And you're not feeling my energy? Because it might just be a simple course correction.
Speaker 1:I didn't know that you cared about that. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:That's a great question to ask us a senior leader and it gives, like you know, what honest thanks for asking. Like I don't feel your energy in X, y and Z and that way you say, okay, great. I want to kind of course, correct that and make sure you know I think open up those lines of communication, asking those really good questions, is going to help align those values.
Speaker 1:And you don't know what you don't know. And that's on both sides of the table. So, as a leader, are you asking the questions that help unpack for your staff, like, hey, is there, is there a path here that you want to take? Can I help you grow in this organization? And if you're the employee like saying hey, where, where can I grow, where can I investigate, where can I find out more about what we're doing here? And there has to be a healthy curiosity on both sides of like. I wonder if they care enough to maybe be someone who grows in this organization. And the staff person has got to be like man. I wonder if this is a leader who cares enough if I win here, that they'll invest in me and develop me so that I can have more influence and more impact here. Yeah, but I do think there's just a lot of like people on both sides of the table just not being curious enough to find out what's next in the journey.
Speaker 2:Well, and you said this last episode and I've reflected on this a lot you talked about this whole pick two concept, which we kind of disagreed on it a little bit. We just had some good like healthy debate. But I think I think the premise of what you're saying is is right and I think it was culture, compensation or recognition. Yeah, those are three. You're like, listen, you're pick two, you're not going to get all three of those things. And I'm like the you know, the optimist like yeah, you can have a company that has all three of those things Like, but the truth, the reality is, history shows that you're probably going to get one or two of those things, not all three.
Speaker 2:So, on the employee side, don't sign up for an organization that is a really mission driven, purpose driven type organization Like don't go work for a nonprofit if you want to make a bunch of money Like that's on you, don't. You don't have to work there, right, and you can't expect them at that point to compensate you like you would in another. You know, or you know, if you want to be your own boss on your own business and you want to make that kind of money, you have to take the risk to do that right, and so some of it is just understanding what you value and not not at putting an expectation on that leader organization. That's not fair. They never. They never promised that in the first place.
Speaker 1:So a couple other answers for this. You know, what expectations do you have for your staff? That you struggle to say often or clearly enough was the question, and this one was say that one more time.
Speaker 1:that what's an expectation you have for your staff that you, as the leader, struggle to say often or clearly enough. So it's just you're not communicating enough to them, or not communicating clearly enough to them often and clearly. And so this was I want to pay you more, but I can't make the numbers work right now, and I think it's tied to this next one. There are just some things that I can't tell you about, and so it's that kind of man behind the curtain runs. The organization, the employees are in the dark situation.
Speaker 2:So you've been an executive leadership in and I've watched you specifically be in situations where you were the point leader in crisis that you were oftentimes, sometimes the only one, or maybe even one of two people, even on the executive team, that knew what was going on. Like. It was that sensitive Like, and we were, we were teammates at times where I didn't know what was going on. It was either not appropriate or it wasn't time yet, or like, or you were just so far out front that you had to carry those things In your experience. How do you balance that? How do you balance clear communication, transparency with your team, with your staff, and also just bearing the burden of information that you can't share sometimes?
Speaker 1:It takes a North Star right. There's got to be a core conviction internally that and for me. I worked in an organization that was disingenuine about transitions and anytime somebody was getting fired what was communicated is oh, so-and-so is going to start their own company.
Speaker 2:It's like, no, they're not, you're fired.
Speaker 1:And this is the best they can do in this moment is come up with that excuse. And again, I'm not saying specifically every time there's a transition you should air dirty laundry, but I had this sense of like man it If I ever get in leadership, I want to be as transparent as possible, because I meant my BS meter goes off in moments like that and I just won't stand for it Almost everyone's does, by the way, I mean it's like you're not fooling anybody.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like everyone's. Like what's the real story here? Given the real story? Yeah, I mean, do it, you know, obviously do it with discretion, but yeah, so we keep going.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so when I had the chance to get closer to situations that were, you know, critical in the organization. Things were, you know, there were mistakes made and you know, sometimes these were legal issues, sometimes these were financial issues, and I got entrusted with, you know, caring and managing tough situations. It's like, okay, not everybody needs to know everything at the same time, but people need to know enough that it puts that human curiosity at rest. It's like, hey, I noticed so-and-so and so-and-so are jumping into a meeting. I wonder what's going on over there. And it's just normal to wonder, like I wonder how that situation is gonna impact me. I wonder what's going on with this and that.
Speaker 1:And you know we're wired to kind of be curious about seeing things in organizations that look, yeah, they might not pass the smell test, and so I think I just committed to listen there. There are some things that go on in organizations that do they ultimately affect you? No, do you want to know about them? Yeah, and you know, if I was in your shoes or in your seat, I would want to know about that too. Yeah, but for the interests of the organization or the people involved in a circumstance, it's not prudent, it's not best, to share all the specifics of what's going on.
Speaker 2:Well in the long term. Like you're, you're wanting to build trust with the people that you lead in. What doesn't build trust is is transferring information or communicating early for the sake of wanting to be liked or wanting like. That's what Keeley's healed for me. There's times where I would share communication because I'm trying to bring that person in. I want you to like me, I want you to you know, I want to. There's a part of Sharing information soon that that brings a loyalty there, a short-term loyalty, as opposed to saying no, I'm gonna be trustworthy with this information because I want you to be able to trust me if you're ever on the other side of some communication and some things employees just need to know is and it's much more than a larger organization where there's a multi-level leadership and staff. There's just there's. There's a process by which communication has to filter down and sometimes that process takes a long time and that would drive me insane. Hundred percent, because I want to cut to the end.
Speaker 2:Let's just tell her whatever with but sometimes you have to and finally I actually started bringing people around me to say, hey, here's what needs to be communicated. Can you actually map out for me the, the, the, the timeline, the next steps and who needs another? Because Nine out of ten times I would, I would mess that up because I wouldn't be thinking, oh, this person needs to know that for this reason, and this is how it affects her job, I wasn't intentionally trying to keep them out, I just wasn't thinking through all the details of how it might affect this person and so they get mistakes too.
Speaker 1:It's like there's a sequence of communication, yeah, and you was like, oh gosh, I've got this great idea. I've got this. Things got to get handled. A problem, whatever it is, you want to go to the teams that you know can start to fix the problem sooner than later. Right, maybe you miss a layer of leadership. I didn't tell somebody's manager, hey, this is going on, because I went straight to the person that could solve the problem, right?
Speaker 1:It's like no, there is a sequence to roll out communication, especially when it's like crisis level, right, like this right and I think what you know, if I were answering this question in the poll, you know what do I struggle to say often, and clearly enough is and sometimes I just don't know like, just because you're in a leadership role doesn't mean you have all the answers, all the vision, all the direction, all the solutions. And so sometimes you know, when it's like there are things that I just can't tell you, it's because I haven't figured it out yet. I don't know, I'm not sure yet.
Speaker 2:Would you so you're saying you would do more of actually Letting them know that you didn't know?
Speaker 1:That's a good question. I would want that to be like just kind of an umbrella idea. Hey look, senior leadership is has high integrity, you have high character, we were mission driven and you know values, focus. We're gonna accomplish stuff best we can and at the end of the day, we don't have all the tools, we don't have all the solutions. That's why we're a team. We're gonna work together.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I remember, like, especially during COVID, you and I were responsible for making a lot of decisions that, yeah, impact a lot of people and I don't know our percentage on how many we got right, how many got wrong, right, like I think everybody was just winging it, figuring it out, but I Think I would have probably a little bit more. Not come, not completely, because you don't lose trust, but hey, these people know what they're doing at all. Right, but I think there's a little bit of humility that we could show and leadership sometimes to bring people into the solution, because a lot of times they're like well, why didn't you tell us earlier? And some of it was like you said, the timeline just wasn't, it wasn't time for you to know yet. Yeah, and if you're an employee, listen to that. That's just a pill you have to swallow. Sometimes, yeah, it's like listen, wherever you're at in the organization, it. You may not be privileged to the information yet and there's good reasons you got to trust your leader.
Speaker 2:There's good reasons why that happens, but some of it is exactly what you just said, like I think on times where I just didn't know and I was processing a decision a little bit sooner, I would have got the options out in front of the team and said okay, here's some of the things we're considering right now. We don't know the best course of action. We value your feedback. Here's what we're doing, here's what we're not. We're just sitting on it. We're not just, like you know, it's not a competency issue here as far as like, we're lazy and not make decision, but these have massive implications for a lot of people. We don't want to make a quick decision, but Be thinking here's option a, b and c what how that might affect you if we choose one of these options. So that way, at least they're processing at a time. Okay, this is what I need to do, maybe even start to prepare a little bit more.
Speaker 1:And and you said this a second ago it's like the more complex the organization yeah, the more the challenge, the more challenge it is to really figure out where in the organization should a decision be made. So I've got a principle that's like man, let's win. Possible. The decision should be made at the lowest level in the org chart. Possible.
Speaker 1:Like if senior leaders are making all the decisions, you've got a very stuck organization because everything rises to that senior leadership table and they're deciding on items that are honestly not that significant, not that important.
Speaker 1:You need to push decisions down as much as they possibly can, and you know the season of business the last, we'll call it, the last six right years, where things are unpredictable financially. Things are unpredictable when it comes to culture, things are unpredictable when it comes to you know how the pandemic affected things. Some of those decisions couldn't get pushed down far enough in the organization to pick up speed. So what happened is a lot of decisions got rolled up in those years to a senior team across lots of industries, and no one really had enough data to start to make those decisions. You know clearly enough, with really clear direction, to tell their teams what was going on, and so there was a lot of frustration, I would imagine, in that season if you're an employer. But kind of going back to this question, like sometimes leaders just don't have all the answers, and it can be frustrating.
Speaker 2:And when you said before I think before we started shooting too, like you got to. As a leader, you have to say things until you're exhausted of it, right? I mean, unpack that a little bit more, like you buy, I know for me, like I just get so tired of hearing my own voice sometimes, but that's probably about the time the team is starting to get it.
Speaker 1:So I've heard other people say this thing. Patrick Lincione talked about this in one of his books where he saw a guy toting something big and heavy at the airport. He was flying with it and it was something that he used to sell his company or business. I don't know what it was, but it's like how exhausting is it to drag around this you know piece of product to have to demonstrate and showcase it? But it's like the commitment to carry that around is really what senior leaders are committing to do. Like, even though it's cumbersome and burdensome and it's awkward to carry these things. When you're communicating vision, when you're communicating culture, you have to say it so often that it feels like a burden. It feels uncomfortable because people forget they've got other priorities in their life and so when it comes to communicating like, you can't say something enough and, honestly, if you're saying something great, people will like oh yeah, I love it when he says it becomes a mantra or whatever.
Speaker 2:Well, and the last thing I'll say on this topic is it goes back to what we talked before. If you're an employee, chances are your leader is not intentionally withholding information from you to make your life difficult because they just don't like you. Like, I had an employee one time come to me and they were probably three or four rungs down on the org chart. I don't know how you say that, right, but you know what I mean. Like in the. And they came to me and they actually informed me as to why they needed to know the information. Right, like hey, here's how this.
Speaker 2:And I was so grateful because it was a blind spot for me and they weren't doing it in a way that made me feel like you know, I'm entitled to this information. It was more of like hey, just so you know this, how this, this, how it impacts my world. And it was very helpful for me to be like oh, okay, I'll cut you in earlier next time on this, or I'll make sure the right people talk to you or you're in the right rooms, or whatever, because now I'm educated. So I would just say to the employee don't, don't hold that in and be frustrated. Communicate to your leader the why and chances are your leader will adjust. Yeah, that's good.
Speaker 1:I love that. You know I hit on this right before we jumped into that. There are things that just can't tell you response, but one was I want to pay you more, but I can't make the numbers work right now. The reason I rolled that into it is because there are some organizations that don't have open book policies where it's like hey, I'm going to show you the entire P and L, we're going to look at all the items of you know costs and expenses and revenues, and a lot of employees wouldn't know what to do if they had those documents in front of them anyway. So right.
Speaker 1:So I should get a 10% bump because of I'm looking at this one bucket of a. You know P and L. I do think I had this business professor in college and he said this was his philosophy hire great people, pay him as much as he possibly can and expect the world from him. And you know, I I'm sure there's some flaws in that, but man, it's really simple. It's like yeah, go find great people, pay them as much as you can and then make sure the expectations are right.
Speaker 2:When you think back about on your hiring history. Would you have hired less people at a higher rate, or would you have kept hiring more people at a more entry level rate, or would you kept the ratio about the same?
Speaker 1:Yeah, probably depends on the industry. But when I was in purpose non-profit work, that's just a development system. It's rarely meant to go find all-stars because the resources are slim, so you can't go find world-class talent and pay them a lot of money. So you have to find people who are passionate about the mission, passionate about the vision, get them on where you can afford them and develop them into great leaders. But in other businesses, especially investing in real estate, I don't have time to pay a bunch of cheap architects and engineers and contractors. I've got to get jobs done quick because the time value of money makes these deals really expensive. So I think it depends on the industry, but absolutely when all else fails, developing talent is cheaper than buying talent. What do you think?
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I just was processing that. I thought your answer is the right one, I believe. I think depends on the industry. I have a lot of empathy for that question, though, because a lot of my world and senior leadership was in creative and marketing space, which they wanted to keep me as far as I spent the money. They were keeping me away from the books, away from the numbers, and so there was a lot of times where I was in senior leadership but I was not pulling the trigger on what my people were getting paid.
Speaker 2:I was an advocate for them and I wanted to pay them as much as I possibly could, but I wasn't the ultimate decider on that, and so I just have empathy for that question, and I think, as a leader, if you're in that spot, the best you can do is just be a strong advocate to whoever is holding the purse strings of your employees, why they do what they do. I had a great relationship with our CFO, and he wanted the best for our team too, which was awesome, but there was a lot of times where I had to educate him on what this person even does, what they're doing, why it's a value, and once he got it, he was able to understand. He would be very generous, you know. But I think as a leader, if you're not the one actually making the decision, you have to be a strong advocate for your team, why they deserve it, why they need it, and if you can't, then honestly that's a problem. You need to figure that out.
Speaker 1:I will go ahead no that was it, that was it.
Speaker 1:I will say attention, I do live in. Thank you. When it comes to figuring out how do we pay entry level people. Is my own story really impacts for the good and for the bad? It's like, man, when I started I only got paid X. When you're starting, you're getting paid 50, 60, 100 percent more than when I started. Part of me is like okay, no, don't let your lid be anybody else's lid. That's the side I want to lean on. More often than not it's like no, don't let your experience ruin someone else's entry level experience. But I also know, man, struggle is valuable. I'm not trying to make people struggle, don't get me wrong. I'm trying to say when you get everything you want right when you start, it does kill your prey drive.
Speaker 1:It does kill your motivation because it's like man, I just got everything I wanted.
Speaker 2:I feel you on that? That could be probably a whole another episode, because I do think I don't want to sound like the old guy nowadays, but the truth is it's harder to find. When I was coming up, your first gig sometimes was unpaid, sometimes it was an internship, where you're working, you're waiting tables and you're interning somewhere to get in the door and like that's not really the. I mean, a lot of times people are expecting to get pretty great job salaries coming around to college and, hey, more power. I would have done that if I could have Right. I didn't have that option.
Speaker 2:But I agree with you. I think we're bypassing some value in the early entry, startup days where we get in and we work hard because we believe in something, we want to make it better, and then we prove ourselves and there's some value and worth in that too, and and 100%. But then I'm also with you too, like I want to. I had some great young leaders on my team before and I was really thrilled to compensate them. Yeah, what I, what I felt was well like I was like man. I never got this coming. It's all like I was happy to do that, but. But they also had the work ethic, you know, and that's that's important.
Speaker 1:I know it's on a compensation and salary episode. I think what I want leaders to know is part of the reason a fraction X exist is this isn't a conversation you can have with your staff. Like hey, here's where I really struggle. And trying to compensate you, like you can really miss, say these things yeah, as you're trying to process what's, what's our compensation philosophy, right, rather than just, you know, spewing ideas out, and your team gets really twisted. It's like, wait, you want me to be compensated, well, but you're worried that I'm not going to struggle. Like you're not making any sense right now, yeah, but the bottom line is, when you're in leadership and you've got these decisions to make, they're just difficult, right, really hard.
Speaker 2:That's part of what we do and we we do these these off sites. I mean part of it is dive it into strategy, vision, goals and does your staff still reflect where you want to go? I mean, sometimes you've built something and then culture changes, or or even your vision changes, something changes and you're stuck with a staff that is like wait a minute, this doesn't reflect where we're going now and you need to audit. But you're so close to it Sometimes it's hard to see it. You know, and so I've watched you do that, and in these offsite environments where you go and you dig in, then you make everything in your organization a line under hey. This is where we want to go and even as our team I always got because I would restructure every other week. You know, of course I wouldn't recommend that. That was just me being bored, but I do think there's a time and a place for a good like hey. Does our current team what they're getting paid and compensated?
Speaker 1:the structure of the team doesn't reflect where we're trying to go with this organization, that's right and I think maybe we'll just wrap with this last item on here is you know what's something you wish you could tell your staff? And it says I became a manager before I knew how to lead, and I think people feel the effects of that sometimes, that you get good at something, yeah, like hey, I'm really good at sales, I was really good at sales for two years, and so now you're the sales manager. It's like well, man, I was really good at sales. I'm not sure how to lead other sales people. That's a different skill set.
Speaker 1:So so frequently in business the mistake is made. It's called the Peter principle. It's when you get promoted beyond your competency and I think there's healthy stretching like hey, we see something in you, we think you can be this and we're going to develop you and train you on how to be a good manager, but that's, that's the exception. What's normal is for people you showed up to work two weeks in a row on time. You're the boss now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like yeah.
Speaker 1:I don't know how to lead people, and so that that happens a lot.
Speaker 2:That's. I think that's really important, because if I was to answer that question, I mean and I was just being gut level honest what I wish my team knew is I'm not nearly as confident in my leadership abilities as what I project. Like there's so many insecurities that I have about and I really do care about my people, and so it was hurtful and personal to me when I felt like I made a leadership mistake because I was like oh man, but then that just prayed back into my insecurities.
Speaker 1:So what's the healthy level of communication where you can be vulnerable and be honest but also be the right amount of confident to lead a team.
Speaker 2:Well, I think I think it's just understanding that, like you said earlier in the episode, you admitting that you don't know something is not a sign of weakness. You know, you inviting people in to the solution and inviting them to the table when it's appropriate and when it's right, you know, I don't. I think that actually wins people over to say, hey, we want to come alongside you. I don't think, as leaders, we have to to continue to hold up this banner of we got all the answers and we got. You know, we're the smartest in the room and where I mean my last position.
Speaker 2:When I left that role and this was not false humility Every leader at the table with me on my team was better at what they did. Like. At that point, my job was to give them vision and to care for them, like make sure they were doing well and had what they needed, and I hadn't you know goal like that stuff. But it was not to tell them how to do their job. They all knew how to do their job better than I could tell them how to do it Right.
Speaker 2:And you can either take that one or two ways that can prey on your insecurity, or you can say, man, this is awesome. I've got some rock stars. Let me set them free to lead. So I don't know if that answers your question, but I think there's. There's more value in authenticity, like true authenticity, not the put on type of you know the buzzword yeah exactly, but the true, like I'm going to let my guard down here, I'm going to be a human with you and I'm going to invite you into the solution. I actually think that does more to build trust with your team than it does to hurt your leadership.
Speaker 1:That's great, Drew. Thanks so much. I think this is going to be really helpful for leaders to commit to communicating right, Be committed to casting vision, creating culture, and give a place for your team to grow and develop.