The FractionX Podcast
Leadership is Hard. We're here to help.
The FractionX Podcast
Building a feedback culture is risky. Do it anyways!
"Feedback" is often a platitudinal buzzword in the work place, but even if feels tired, I promise you it's incredibly crucial. On this episode Matt and Drew talk to leaders who need to grow in how they receive feedback from their teams, and we give some tips for employees who want to learn how to give their leader feedback.
All right. So, matt, it's a good one thing. One thing that we're both passionate about is helping leaders get better. Yeah, that's why this podcast exists. So we're going to be truthful on this podcast, right, and so I want leaders to know that we are on the side of leaders getting better. But here's what's true Most leaders don't know what to do with feedback. It's true, they don't. It's very difficult for us, as leaders, to receive criticism, receive feedback about our baby, our organization, the thing we're leading. We're doing the best we can. And what's also true is, whether you know it or not, or believe it or not, your people in your organization are scared to death of giving you feedback. They are so afraid because they feel like, if they are truthful with you about how the organization is going, how they're experiencing organization or experiencing as a leader, it's going to be costly to them right, which, unfortunately, history shows that that is true. So, since we're here to help leaders get better, the question is let's just have a conversation for a few minutes about feedback feedback culture.
Speaker 1:How do?
Speaker 2:we, as leaders, create a culture of feedback, a healthy culture of feedback, and how do we make it safe for our employees to actually be rewarded and championed for telling us the things that we don't want to hear. We don't like to hear? Help us with this, matt.
Speaker 1:That's a whopper of a question how long do you have? Well, hey, as long as you as long as you want to go.
Speaker 2:We said we were to try to keep them short and I love that. You know we have conversations all the time. Part of this, this podcast, is let's capture some of the conversations that we're having.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we already don't know, is like most of the time, we just hit record and so you don't even really know, like the exact question I'm about to ask. I just trust your, your wisdom and instincts, but this is a big issue, man, feedback, like I will say, for me personally, I have more bad experiences with feedback than good as far as giving it and it being received. Well, I've been fired for honest feedback. I've been dismissed or I've been, I've been, I've been fired for honest feedback. And so, if I'm, you know, I own my own business now and I want to have, you know, a culture of feedback within our company. But if I was working for somebody right now, I'd be honest with you, it would be tough for me to go there. Yeah, because I just don't have good experiences with it. What are your experiences with?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean some some good and some not not so good. You know, I have a way. So this is going to be kind of crazy.
Speaker 1:I've got four sisters and so I've got four sisters, and so back in my music days and I played music with a couple of them, you know, yeah, I kind of navigated a way of giving feedback about music with people who were close to you. Okay, that people were able to just listen to what I had to say. So a lot of my like learning how to give feedback came in a musical setting. I'm like, hey, that sounds really good. I think the part actually goes like this though, can you try it this way? Yeah, and a little bit of the compliment sandwich was my first approach. I'm going to come and feedback. Hey, this is okay, this needs to get better, but if we do this, I think it's going to be great. And so I think I just learned how to give feedback in a way that people can receive it.
Speaker 1:Not perfectly, but you know, a funny story about feedback is I'm a part of a club, a golf club here in middle Tennessee. You know it'll remain nameless for now, but every time you play around a golf or eat at the clubhouse, they send you like an automated hey, give us a survey, we want to know how we did. And honestly, I was really candid because there's a lot of frustrations with the operation of the club. There's a lot of frustrations with leadership and management and, um, you know you're paying for a service that's unnecessary. I don't have to do this. I can write, you know, cancel this anytime and go do something else. So it's like if I'm going to pay a premium, I want to have premium experience, and after all, the feedback fell on deaf ears. I just stopped doing it. And so I talked to a new membership director literally yesterday and they were like hey, so tell us how you've been doing. I was like do you really want to know how you've been doing? Yeah, I'd love to know. I was like well, um, this is going to get probably a little uncomfortable. The men's urinal for three weeks wasn't working in the bathroom and they put a kitchen bus tub underneath it to catch the league. Did you know that? No, I didn't know that. Would you put that on a feedback form? I was like, no, I filled those feedback forms out for a year and no one ever came to me and asked me any questions about it.
Speaker 1:Right, and so I don't think, even if an organization has a system for feedback, that they really want it all the time, and the difference between a good organization and a great organization is one that actually pays attention to feedback. Yeah, so you just can't know where you really are in the world. You can, um, you can look at sales and revenue and go, okay, yeah, people are buying our product or our service, so things are going well, and maybe you've got feedback about the item, but you don't exactly know like, hey, we're really connecting with our customers, we're really willing with our staff or we're winning with, you know, the community at large, and so one of the best ways that one of my favorite things about feedback is, like Amazon, every time I buy something I go what's the star rating? Can I read a couple of the best reviews, a couple of the middle reviews and a couple of the lower reviews, just to kind of see what am I getting into? Because you know, sometimes the product people will respond to the bad feedback hey, that didn't work because X, y and Z but so often the negative feedback is never responded to.
Speaker 1:And so I think, in a world where people are like desperate for differentiation, like how do I get above my competition? How do I become not just a good brand, but an excellent brand. How do I become an excellent company? And again, you have to have your north story. You have to be, have your convictions that lead and guide your organization. But please pay attention to the feedback that you're getting from your staff and from your customers. And so I'll just tell one more story.
Speaker 1:I was working with a vendor one time and we were paying them a lot of money in a construction field and I just said, gosh, I really like the person who leads this organization. I think they're talented, I think they're brilliant and they're really kind. But I was committed to having a really good relationship with this person. I said hey, can I tell you something? You guys missed expectations on this spot right here. And I'm telling you that not because I'm mad at you, because I want to make an investment in your company, and I think, ultimately, that's what feedback really is.
Speaker 1:Feedback is an investment. So if you have an employee, hey, can I give you some feedback. You're choosing to make an investment in them. If you have a leader, hey, can I give you some feedback? And it's risky, but you're choosing to make an investment. And no investment comes without risk. But for me, I'm not going to work in an organization where that is more risky than being honest. Like my integrity, my thoughts and my honesty are way higher than going. I'm going to tuck tail and not say what I think here. I just won't work in a place like that.
Speaker 2:That's so good. Yes, I just really relate to what you're saying, because there's been long seasons of time where I have held honest feedback and really what that is is the form of manipulation. That's true, because you're just like I'm going to kind of manipulate this. I'm going to like we talk about leading up and all this different things, but if you're not willing to be honest and kind of put yourself out there in risk, now there's wisdom, there's probably a time and a place and all this things that not always. Just like no leader wants someone falling around with criticism all the time. Right, and it's really the leader's responsibility to invite that into an organization anyway.
Speaker 2:But, man, what you just said about having to decide between am I going to be a person of integrity and honesty or am I going to hold this stuff and be miserable and it come out sideways and all that stuff? I've been that guy way too much out of fear and looking back, even though it would cost me, I would have much rather, for my own personal integrity, be the one to stand up and say, hey, here's something I'm seeing. So here's my question to you, and we'll try to do this quickly, but I've got two camps. I want you to talk to you. The first one I want you to talk to leaders. Ok, how do we, as leaders, create a culture of healthy feedback? Yeah, so that our employees feel safe.
Speaker 1:Yeah, First of all, it starts with a healthy self-awareness Self-awareness and humility to say I can separate my performance from my identity. And I understand that the people I lead may not see the blood, sweat and tears I put in off hours after hours before they ever started working in this organization. So I know that I may have made a contribution to this organization they've never seen. So if they criticize an aspect of my leadership, they're not criticizing everything I've ever done. They're saying hey, my experience of you, when you manage my KPIs or when you manage my performance results, I feel X, ok, great, all right, I can work on my approach with you.
Speaker 1:And I think a really healthy leader says everybody I lead is not wired the same, everybody I lead is not wired like me. Do I have time and capacity to lead them in a way that's unique to them, that's going to get the best results out of them as an employee? And then say I'm not gonna be Personally offended, yeah, if they say something I'm doing is not meeting their expectations. Right, honestly, I want to get better. So I think it's an attitude that says I'm willing to get better and I'm willing to listen to feedback from the people that are seeing my work performance up close as much as possible, and also as your leader. I reserve the right to disagree with your perspective.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but also I'm not gonna punish you for being honest with me, right, that's so good.
Speaker 2:Well, if I could go back to like Drew as a, as a younger leader, I would say, man, just shut up and listen. Hmm, like, don't try to fix it, yeah don't be defensive.
Speaker 2:Yeah, don't be defensive, just listen to what they have to say. Empathize with them because that's their experience of you now and what you just said is true. I also don't have to agree with them because, as a leader, there's a lot of times where I was receiving feedback, especially if it was critical feedback or more on the negative side. What I wanted to do is defend that and which was true, that this person is not seeing everything that I'm seeing in the organization. They have one small, but that's still their experience of me as a leader or the organization at that moment. And it was almost impossible for me even if I'd go into those meetings saying don't defend it was almost impossible for me to not try to give perspective. Yeah, if I had to over, I would have done a much better job of just listening, thanking them for the feedback, reflecting back, hey, empathizing like hey, listen, you know it's important to me to hear this, this perspective, this you know, and and kind of meeting them in that place.
Speaker 2:You don't have to necessarily agree with them, but you can say listen, I hear you and I see what you're saying.
Speaker 1:It's a it's a value to me and a really good practice in that moment. Just a brief side note is it's probably taking them months of frustration and courage to have that conversation. They've probably said it so poorly that they're almost terrified, yeah. So if you can in that moment just say hey, listen, here's what I think I heard you say yeah, and just reframe it, not reframe it, rephrase it. Hey, did you say this? Yes, I, that's, that's what I'm especially if they see change right.
Speaker 2:Like how powerful would it be for an employee to give some feedback and then, not too long after, here leaders say hey, we received some feedback on this and so this is something that we're gonna do a little different to help solve this problem. You don't have to out them, you can keep them anonymous, all those different things. But for someone to be like, hey, they not only heard me, but they're addressing right and they're making some changes. Well, now that people are gonna feel more and more safe to bring that, how refreshing is it? Warning?
Speaker 1:how refreshing is it to work an Organization that pivots? I mean, the only constant in life has changed, yeah, and why do organizations think that we're not gonna change? Whether it's policy or procedure, things are different than they were six months ago, six years ago, ten years ago. So of course, you need to update systems and policies and all that stuff, and Not that you bend to every whim because I'm listen, you can hire some people on your team that they will. Like we said in a previous episode, every decision I don't like is toxic and they pivot and all of a sudden you're, you're beholden to the employees and so you're off mission. I'm not talking about critical mission, strategic things. I'm talking about like leadership moments and how we manage people, how we engage with our teams.
Speaker 2:Yep, yeah, yeah and over time. Like you know, there's times where I received feedback as a leader before and it was something that I did need to actually deal with with that employee. Yeah, it was something that the employee was was Misaligned with our mission or whatever, but at least in that moment I think there's some, some good practices.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you had a second question, I think yeah, I was gonna talk to just there's mid-level managers that listen to this, and leaders, yeah, have to give feedback too, so I wanted you to speak directly to them. What do we do as an employee, or what do we do when we're given the opportunity for feedback? And, and how do we manage that when we're feeling like, hey, I gotta, this is risky. You know, like even for the safest of leaders, it's still sure risky. Well, how would you advise us?
Speaker 1:So I think if there's not a systematic way to lead up with feedback, it's really difficult. So if an organization has a culture of 360 reviews, where a leader is getting you know systematized feedback from someone who works for them it's on my calendar, my annual review. Every year I get to hear from the people that I lead, the people on you know peer level, the org chart and my leaders. So three, six reviews is a great way to do that. But if you're an organization that doesn't have official channels for feedback, you Feedback is like a bank account. If you go in to an empty relationship account and try to take a withdrawal, the check's gonna bounce, so to speak.
Speaker 1:And so I think it starts with having a good relationship with your leader. Some of the best advice I ever got as an employee was hey, care about what your leader cares about. You will earn a lot of influence if you understand that hey, my leader really values X, and even if it's not natural to me to value that, I'm gonna value that. And over a season of time, if you are succeeding and winning with your leader, if you're valuing the things that your leader values, you better believe if you say hey, man, can we have like a tough conversation. I'd like to give you some feedback. And you've built equity in that relationship. You've made investments into that relationship account. You can do that with a lot less risk.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's great. One thing I would just add to that real quick is a really powerful question when it comes to giving feedback to your leader is just to ask hey, some things I'm noticing, are you open to some feedback? That's right, because at that point you are not. You know you're coming to them and giving them the ownership of saying they could say no. Right Now most of them won't. Even if they're not open to it, they're gonna say yes, but at least at that point there's a humility and saying, hey, I'm not going to just blast you with an email, which you know don't ever do, that that's right. But I'm going to come to you and say hey, there's some things I'm noticing that feel off from what I know you want to accomplish and I've seen some things. Are you open to some feedback? If not, that's fine. And then, if they say no, then you can say okay, well now you've got a decision to make for yourself.
Speaker 2:But it's kind of living in this interdependency, even within, like you know, and not to get off on that. But we can be so codependent on one another and try to control how each other feels and acts and behaves and all that kind of stuff in an organization as well. But it's saying, hey, I'm going to give you the right to choose whether you get the feedback or not, and if you say no, then I get to take ownership of my own stuff and some like 401, you know, level stuff.
Speaker 1:When it comes to feedback, something I tell my kids all the time is hey, what? How you say something is just as important as what you say may be more important. And so when you have got some nuance and subtleties to the way you're communicating, like you said, if I just blast an email to my leader with no context or no emotion, it's difficult to understand what they're really saying. Like you, better not expect a really great response. But if you can have a great conversation where it's open and it's honest, and your posture, your facial expressions, the way you communicate, all that stuff matters.
Speaker 2:Right and talk about yourself. Don't talk about them Like. I think great feedback is not. You're messing up, you're doing this. It's like here's what I'm experiencing.
Speaker 1:Here's what I'm feeling.
Speaker 2:Like because you can't really argue with someone's experience or how they're feeling, whether it's right or wrong, it's how they're feeling. So as soon as you point the finger at me as a leader and you start telling me all the things I'm doing wrong, it's going to be not as well received if you're just talking about yourself, like here's something I'm noticing or I'm seeing or I'm feeling, and then you're also inviting me into clarify as a leader, like so could you bring some clarity to this, or is there something I'm missing or not seeing? Just a mutual humility there, but maybe we'll wrap with this.
Speaker 1:I would just say, if you're unfortunate enough to be in an organization that is not really great with feedback, you can be the change in an organization like that by going first. And it starts with that question hey, do you have any feedback for me? Do you have any feedback for me? And you better believe if I have an employee who, every time we have a one on one, ask me if I have any feedback for them. You'd have to be an idiot at some point not to reflect that back to them. Hey, man, thanks for asking me about feedback. Do you have any feedback for me? And you can be the change to start to grow something in your culture to make it better.
Speaker 2:Thanks, dude.